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Brit says: Self-defense is a skill beyond most of us… Updated #2 Mr. Hammond responds

January 25, 2013

See bottom of post for brilliant response from another Brit who purportedly lives in the same town as Mr. Hammond.

National Firearms Museum photo. Click for full size.

 

To all at GunsSaveLives,

I’m sorry guys, you have got it wrong. Guns don’t save lives, they take them.  Since I am not a US citizen you might wonder what I know about it. I live in the UK where gun control is much tighter. That’s not to say we don’t have gun crime, every now and then some lunatic goes on the rampage with a gun (usually one they legally have access to). In fact one of the worst shooting incidents we have had recently in the UK began a few miles from my home (Derek Bird shot and killed 12 people and injured 11 others on 2 June 2010). But I don’t believe that arming ‘good people’ would have helped. Being able to use a gun effectively to defend yourself and others and avoid harming bystanders is a skill beyond most of us. Soldiers are trained for years to do exactly that. Nevertheless if you look at some of the video footage available from the battlelines in places like Afghanistan you can see how chaotic and confusing a firefight is. The idea that a well intentioned member of the public is going to be able to operate at that level is not credible, there will be carnage and more innocent life will be lost.

I have lived and worked in the US. In that time I found Americans to be intelligent, hard-working, humourous, generous and some of the nicest people you will ever meet. And yet on a couple of occasions when visiting friends I was astounded to be shown the collection of firearms they kept in the house. Honestly, if they told me they kept a live lion in the basement and sent the kids down there twice a week to feed it I could not have been more dumbfounded. I could not make sense of it. Why would these civilized,   sensible people want these things around?

It’s time to take a deep breath, do the difficult thing and put your guns down. You won’t be giving up your rights or your heritage or dishonouring your past, you’ll be taking a positive step to becoming a safer, better place to live. Tackle the social issues that underlie some of the gun crime, deal with the gangs, teach your kids about citizenship, social responsibility, hard work and respect. Please don’t divide your society in two and mow each other down in a hail of well intentioned gunfire.

John Hammond
Cumbria
United Kingdom

PS. I have an idea for a Burmashave sign for you:

She heard a noise.
She drew her gun.
Such a shame.
It was her son.

 

Mr. Hammond,

Thank you for offering your opinion that we Americans should surrender our arms and live as you do in Great Britain.

Our answer to that?

One word:  NUTS!

You write:  “you’ll be taking a positive step to becoming a safer, better place to live.”  Oh, really?

Let’s compare modern Great Britain with the United States, shall we?

While Great Britain has fewer gun-related murders, its citizens are truly getting themselves savaged by violent criminals.

Graphic courtesy the Daily Mail.

Where does the United States come in?

From the same Daily Mail article where we found the graphic:  The U.S. has a violence rate of 466 crimes per 100,000 residents, Canada 935, Australia 92 and South Africa 1,609.

Let’s do the math, shall we?  2034/466 = 4.3648067 times the violent crime in the gun-ban utopia of Great Britain.

And frankly, it’s not the United States as a whole that face firearm-related violent crime, but rather the urban centers filled with Obama voters who are enduring the brunt of the violence, and ironically they have made the choice to have very low rates of lawful firearm ownership, sort of like you have in Great Britain.

With all due respect, the folks in Great Britain would be vastly better off re-establishing the right to self-defense from violent attack and allowing residents to once again own firearms.  In the 1800s, firearms were pretty readily available to Britons and frankly, a gentlemen did not go unarmed to certain parts of the city after dark.

For whatever reason, you Brits disarmed yourselves early last century and America had to bail your sorry arses out during that one particular war, sending our personally owned firearms over to your citizens so you wouldn’t be speaking German today.

I offer to you the following example (pictured at the top of this entry) from the National Firearms Museum:

Regular Americans used guns as many as 2.5 million times each year to thwart crime and the overwhelming majority of those don’t involve firing a shot.

They are the ultimate point-and-click interface.  You write:  “Being able to use a gun effectively to defend yourself and others and avoid harming bystanders is a skill beyond most of us.”

Well, maybe for you.  With a few hours of training on the weekend, a person that we Americans would consider of average intelligence can be quite skilled in the fundamental operation of a personal defense handgun and the tactics which will further assist in coming out on top against an untrained, unpracticed criminal adversary.  It’s hardly rocket science.

The Brits visiting the United States I’ve met have taken to firearm shooting skills like a duck to water after a couple of hours of simple, easy training.  Their grins and excited looks speak volumes for their new-found enjoyment of shooting.

So thanks for your impassioned plea that we disarm ourselves to make the work of criminals easier, and to offer ourselves up as subjects (as opposed to citizens) without the ability to overthrow a future tyrannical government.

We already fought two wars to shed the yoke of that sort of thinking from the likes of British people like yourself.  And as much as I love the queen, her son is a douche for cheating on his wife with what surely must be one of the ugliest women in all of Great Britain.

Lastly, let me tweak your sign proposal by just one word to better reflect the overwhelming majority of American gun owners:

She heard a noise.
She drew her gun.
Such a relief.
It was her son.

All the best getting victimized.

Oh yeah, and you can have Piers Morgan back.

John

UPDATE

To all at GunsSaveLife:

I too, like Mr Hammond. live in Cumbria in the UK.

I think that’s as far as the similarities go.

I know rather more about the Derrick Bird shootings than he ever will, having known Derrick since the mid ’70s.

His rampage could indeed have been curtailed if citizens were allowed defensive arms here, or possibly never have happened due to the deterrent factor of not knowing if an armed citizen might confront him.

As things stood, he knew he had a national disarmed victim zone in which to carry out his crimes, just like a “gun free” school zone.

Mr Hammond plainly doesn’t realise that many, if not most firearms owners in the US practice shooting more than either the Police or Military do – certainly the case with those I know.

Like Mr Hammond, I too spend a lot of time in the US & everyone I know has firearms at home.

Their children know about firearms too Mr Hammond & that familiarity & education in their safe handling & use ensures guns aren’t imbued with any mystique to make them in any way “special” or objects of desire.

I’ll tell you why I think Americans keep themselves armed Mr Hammond; it’s because it is their natural Right to do so & Rights that aren’t exercised are soon lost.

You talk of them not having to give up their rights whilst advocating just that & in a manner that would only make sense in a dream like Utopia.

Do you think those with criminal intent will give up their guns first Mr Hammond, because they haven’t done so here in the UK?

Do you think people in the US haven’t spent decades tackling gang culture, social deprivation & other woes of society Mr Hammond?

From what I’ve seen, the effort is both ongoing & far greater than here in the UK.

Our violent crime rate is more than DOUBLE that of the US Mr Hammond & I invite you to consider why that might be.

I know what I think it is makes the difference & it isn’t being nice to violent thugs.

One last thought for you Mr Hammond: It is all too easy to see the US as very similar to the UK because of historical origins & a mutual use of the English language.

That isn’t so, as the US has its own very distinct cultural, societal & political differences that you have plainly missed in your time there.  

As for myself: Given the freedom to choose, I’d be over the Pond & asking to be allowed to stay in the blink of an eye – but only so long as the US holds on to the freedoms we in the UK have let slip away.

Mike the Limey

 

UPDATE #2

Mr. Hammond responded last night and I just had an opportunity to append his comments.

I’ll let them stand without further comment as I believe my earlier response needs no repeating.

And folks, I’ve deleted three or four comments and edited a few more.  Remember:  We’re family friendly here, so keep the language PG-rated or better.  Also, Mr. Hammond is not issuing personal attacks or hurling vitriole, so there’s no need to attack him personally.

 

Mr. Hammond responds:  Jan. 24, 2013

Thanks for all the replies, especially the one from the person who hopes I get mugged! Says something about some of the people who subscribe to this website don’t you think?

I’d like to respond to each and every one of you but that would take a long time and there wouldn’t be any point. So I will keep it brief.

Firstly my original e mail specifically concerned gun crime, not violent crime. Mr. [B]och was good enough to acknowledge this in his response but then quoted statistics for violent crime.

I’m not pretending the UK is some kind of crime free nirvana, but if we had more guns then I’m convinced more of these violent crimes would homicides. The statistics seem to support that, the US tops the charts for civil gun ownership (270 000 000 guns, where do you keep them all?) and the US has one of the highest firearms related death rates in the
developed world.  So, simple maths says more guns = more deaths (good people and bad people alike).

Believe it or not I have I have fired a gun. Even more it incredibly, I did so on a range right here in the the UK. And I enjoyed it too.

If we are ever attacked by a hoard of flesh eating monster paper targets I’ll be as prepared as the next man to defend myself. I don’t regard myself as combat ready though, I think I’d be a bit deluded if I did.

John Hammond
Cumbria, UK

PS As for Piers Morgan, sorry we don’t want him back.

 

Piers, old boy, it’s pretty rough when your own countrymen don’t want your sorry carcass back!

33 comments on “Brit says: Self-defense is a skill beyond most of us… Updated #2 Mr. Hammond responds

  1. John N on said:

    Another recent Brit that commented at this site said she had been robbed at knife point “more times than I can count”.

    I don’t live in one of the urban centers that have disarmed themselves a la the UK. There are plenty of guns around. And I’ve never once been robbed at knife point.

    Using a gun for defense is all about mindset. Your mindset seems to be that normal people, of which you consider yourself to be one example, are too stupid to use a gun safely and effectively for defense.

    My mindset is that with a bit of training, and the mindset of refusing to be a passive victim, most people can use a gun for defense.

    Of course, that same mindset might have led to a bunch of American British subjects refusing to submit to gun control on April 19, 1775.

  2. Menachem Rebelski on said:

    I don’t think we should insult John Hammond since, unlike that disgusting Chinese/Thai/Czech/British/whatever lunatic, he hasn’t insulted us. It seems John is suffering from media induced hoplophobia, which is a pretty common condition in Europe nowadays. Luckily for John, it is easily curable – in the great majority of cases all it takes a single trip to the range. With a minimal amount of instruction (not to use the term “re-education” :) ) , former sufferers enjoy lifetime immunity to this life-threatening condition.

    • snuggle on said:

      not insulted? Of course it’s insulting. He is saying he is repulsed by good Americans who may own guns…that owning a gun is incompatible with being a good person.

  3. Menachem Rebelski on said:

    I have been able to cure a number of European friends and relatives. Strangely, some of those people served in the military in their younger years or even grew up around guns as children. “Progressive” propaganda is insidious – a few decades of constant exposure and it turns the brains of otherwise intelligent people into mush.

    John’s American friends seem to have failed miserably. Instead of showing off their firearm collections, they should’ve taken John to the range and let him have a good time.

    And yes – John Boch is right when he points out the UK has turned into a dump. However, the problem is far more serious than what we could attribute to their insistence on keeping law-abiding citizens disarmed. It is sad to watch what happened there and I don’t think they have any hope to turn things around.

  4. Wish my reply could be more thoughtful, but frankly I hope this arrogant presumptuous Brit gets mugged by Muslims.

    • The message of goverment rape of the populace is that it is ok. Rewards unearned are are blueprint for thuggism. Muslims came into Britain to save the workshy population their shy ones came later. This arrogant and preposterous Brit is much more likely to be mugged by a lower class malignant white. Such politician engendered hater mentality is vastly consuming the lower end ofthe spectrum here. Class warfare the way to consume your society from within.

      • Menachem Rebelski on said:

        I had a dubious pleasure to be in London during the infamous 2011 riots. See: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14452097 for BBC’s analysis of the event as well as some photos. I’m sure the pictures they chose to publish had been carefully selected, but they are still worth a look. I don’t think it was the Muslims who were responsible for this atrocity… Sure, Muslim immigration may pose a more serious threat to Britain’s culture and national identity (or whatever is left of it) in the long run, but the current crime problem (and it’s just unbelievable!) seems to have different roots…

  5. Well said Mr. Boch.
    I sure wish someone could explain to me how all the gun haters can not see or refuses to see the statistics on any country or city where the law-abiding citizens are not allowed to arm them selves. Its overwhelming, always has been.
    Makes me believe that there is something else on their agenda besides protecting anyone.
    Even if I wasn’t a gun owner I would like to think that I could make an intelligent decision concerning armed Americans.
    I always thought gun control was using 2 hands when firing your weapon.

  6. Well, John, your comments are just to prove why we AMERICANS threw your limey asses off the continent, TWICE.

    While looking into the gun safes of your American friends, how many of them were criminals or mass murderers? How many were victims of crime at the behest of “government”?

    As a retired member of the U. S. Armed Forces, I am proud to say I have served with members of the British military, and virtually all of them had no problem whatsoever with private, unrestricted firearms ownership. I beleive that many Britons feel the same way. Maybe there is hope for British “subjects”. Maybe not. But it is nice to know that some Brits still respect, admire, and long for Freedom. That is the natural state of MAN.

  7. henry bowman on said:

    The USA is the metric of strength, Britian is the example of a lost strength of backbone. Now “that guy” is trying to make the USA like unto Britian and other EU places. We stated in 1776 we were unique and strong. We need to become strong one again, on our terms of Liberty. Not as boot licking sheeple

  8. BHirsh on said:

    Yo. Limey.

    Speak for yourself. We are quite confident in our ability to utilize our firearms safely, lawfully and responsibly.

    If you can’t, or your sheeple bretheren can’t, that isn’t our problem.

    It’s yours.

  9. Tell me something, English. How’d that disarmament thing work out for the millions of Irish you starved to death in the 1840′s? Or the Boers you put into the concentration camps in 1900? Or the Hindus and others you machine gunned to death in the 1920′s 30′s, and on and on? [Editor: Now now. It\'s family site. The F-bomb is not appropriate in PG sites such as ours. Thanks in advance! john], that’s my answer to how about putting down our guns, you murdering [Eh-hem, another deletion of a word that rhymes with duck]. All you are is a quacking duck, to lure others to a defenseless and needless death. Tell you what. Just shut up and watch your betters, US, and maybe, just maybe, you’ll see how free men live and breathe, and not by ANYONES by you leave. Pimp.

  10. MrApple on said:

    To hell with the British. They once ruled as Masters of the Universe and now they waste away on their little island. What happen to this once great and well respected nation? And to this “Brit” in general there is a difference between you and me; you’re a “subject” while I am a “citizen”. Enough said.

  11. Do the spineless sheeple want everyone to be like them just so the odds on them being selected by the wolves decrease?
    If you’re behind me, I’ll do my best. If you’re along side me, God bless you. If you’re coming at me, God help you. The Sheepdog

  12. Jeff M on said:

    +1 “Oh yeah, and you can have Piers Morgan back.” I would pitch in on a plane ticket.

  13. Joe Doakes on said:

    I should definitely write this fellow a letter back.

  14. I would so like to write something snappy and funny but I think I will let John’s reply stand for me. Thanks John, nice job!!

  15. There is a difference between being civilized and domesticated. Citizens are civilized. Subjects/serfs/slaves are domesticated.

  16. Porcupine Nine on said:

    The Mail seems to lack a proofreader, as it always has a lot of typos and “write caption here” type placeholders that still make it into the stories… for example, in the article about UK violent crime, the third digit of the Australian violent crime rate was omitted. It’s ten times as high as reported in the Mail (about 920 per 100k people, not 92). See http://www.aic.gov.au/statistics/violent%20crime.html for the real number.

    I agree that armed defense is probably beyond the “us” that the British writer wrote. It’s beyond the British… they’ve been told that helplessness is safety for so long, they’ve become dangerously passive. The gun, or pepper spray, or a knife, or a kubotan, that’s not where self-defense starts. It starts with the mindset.

    Some people don’t have the defensive mindset. They’re permanently in Code White. They are so far removed from that mindset that it scares them when they see it. They can’t tell a sheepdog from a wolf. I guess to a sheep, they’re both canines.

    That’s exactly what I think when I read about this Brit being shocked that normal, nice Americans have guns in their houses. That’s the vast majority of gun owners… it’s the tiny minority that misuse them that are responsible for the murder and mayhem.

    So don’t speak for us in America when you say self-defense is beyond “us”. While some Americans (particularly those in places like New York City) are (tragically) just as effete in their mindset as are the majority of Brits, a lot of us aren’t. If defensive gun use was beyond us, we wouldn’t do it so effectively and so often. Maybe as much as a couple million times a year, and through that, armed citizens have a better record for not shooting the wrong guy than the police, and a similar record as far as not using guns criminally. It works, which is why the clear trend has been toward loosening carry restrictions (with 40 of 50 states now allowing non-felons, etc., to carry concealed in public). No state that has gone to non-discretionary permits has gone back to a more restrictive permit scheme. That almost certainly would not be the case if armed self-defense was anywhere close to how our British friend thinks (that is, guesses) it would be.

    If Americans were not up to the task of using guns for defense, then the National Institute of Justice’s Crime Victimization Survey would not have shown that the safest thing to do when confronted with an armed attacker is to resist with a gun. Unarmed resistance, resistance with other implements, and compliance all fared worse. There are no guarantees in life, but the people in the survey were up to the task of armed self-defense.

    Additionally, if a person thinks he is not mentally ready for self-defense, that condition is curable. All kinds of training are available to get ordinary citizens ready for that encounter we all hope never comes. It’s good to know that you’re not ready, as that is a necessary step in overcoming that obstacle. A gun is not a talisman that wards off evil just by being there. A vigilant (but not paranoid) mindset is crucial. It’s not normal for a lot of people, but it can be learned.

  17. Vince Hathaway on said:

    A personal letter to Mr. Hammond:

    Like England, we have some pretty extreme gun control here in the U.S.. The most gun controlled place where people can choose to live is Washington DC. In 2010 DC had twenty seven times more murders than the slightly larger city of El Paso, Texas. Now, John, El Paso is also a majority minority population like DC. It is also a place were every responsible adult citizen can carry a loaded handgun concealed upon their person as they go about their day traveling, banking, working, shopping or what have you. If you want to convince me of your point of view, you need to explain the twenty seven times more murdering. Your turn.

  18. SamAdams1776 on said:

    Are these Brits even worth a response? These anti-freedom Brits are statists who have so long been subjects, they have no testosterone left in them and as their society collapses, hopefully we will learn the lessons and not go their way as too many of our brethren here are.

    If things start getting bad here, let’s follow our founders’ lead and restore the constitutional republic.

    An Oathkeeper!

  19. Just like we take driving lessons to learn how to drive, responsible gun owners take time to train and practice to hone their skills. Classes and courses are available, ranges are plentiful. I would rather have a gun and not need it for self defense than need a gun and not have it. The article is written by someone who is clearly ignorant.

  20. David Probert on said:

    This Daily Mail article is 3 years old – can’t you find something more up-to-date?

    • It was handy and popped right up on Google.

      I’m not a paid staffer like the Brady Campaign employs, and do this in my spare time.

      If you’ve got newer numbers, send them to me!

      John

      • David Probert on said:

        I expect those figures were referring to, say, 2004/05 – 8 years ago. I’m sure they’ve improved since then – a good example of “don’t believe everything you read in the newspapers” – especially the Daily Mail!
        Because of the bitterly cold weather we’ve had recently in the UK I expect the crime figures for January will drop because all policemen know that in very cold weather, people intending to burgle/mug stay at home.

        Perhaps it’s the same in America.

        Incidentally, muggers were introduced to the UK from America in the 1970s – one more benefit of “civilised” America given to us “poor, unarmed Brits”

        • Lou McClellan on said:

          Could you please take a moment to provide evidence for your stupid and ignorant claims? Thanks so much.

  21. Mike the Limey had problems posting this…

    So I’m posting it for him:

    To all at Guns Save Life:

    I too, like Mr Hammond, live in Cumbria in the UK.

    I think that’s as far as the similarities go.

    I know rather more about the Derrick Bird shootings than he ever will, having known Derrick since the mid ’70s.

    His rampage could indeed have been curtailed if citizens were allowed defensive arms here, or possibly never have happened due to the deterrent factor of not knowing if an armed citizen might confront him.

    As things stood, he knew he had a national disarmed victim zone in which to carry out his crimes, just like a “gun free” school zone.

    Mr Hammond plainly doesn’t realise that many, if not most firearms owners in the US practice shooting more than either the Police or Military do – certainly the case with those I know.

    Like Mr Hammond, I too spend a lot of time in the US & everyone I know has firearms at home.

    Their children know about firearms too Mr Hammond & that familiarity & education in their safe handling & use ensures guns aren’t imbued with any mystique to make them in any way “special” or objects of desire.

    I’ll tell you why I think Americans keep themselves armed Mr Hammond; it’s because it is their natural Right to do so & Rights that aren’t exercised are soon lost.

    You talk of them not having to give up their rights whilst advocating just that & in a manner that would only make sense in a dream like Utopia.

    Do you think those with criminal intent will give up their guns first Mr Hammond, because they haven’t done so here in the UK?

    Do you think people in the US haven’t spent decades tackling gang culture, social deprivation & other woes of society Mr Hammond?
    From what I’ve seen, the effort is both ongoing & far greater than here in the UK.

    Our violent crime rate is more than DOUBLE that of the US Mr Hammond & I invite you to consider why that might be.
    I know what I think it is makes the difference & it isn’t being nice to violent thugs.

    One last thought for you Mr Hammond: It is all too easy to see the US as very similar to the UK because of historical origins & a mutual use of the English language.

    That isn’t so, as the US has its own very distinct cultural, societal & political differences that you have plainly missed in your time there.

    As for myself: Given the freedom to choose, I’d be over the Pond & asking to be allowed to stay in the blink of an eye – but only so long as the US holds on to the freedoms we in the UK have let slip away.

  22. To Mike the Limey:
    Come on in to the US. No need for documentation. We have 12 million now that lack it. One of your outlook and intellect would be welcome.

  23. Kalashnikat on said:

    I’ll go you one better on your Burma Shave signs…

    Heard a noise
    Late at night…
    What’s her choice?
    Die or fight.

    or

    Heard a noise,
    Got her gun,
    See how fast
    Bad guys run.

    For those folks who have made a (more or less mature, and semi-) conscious decision that their own life is not worth defending, …I’m willing to grant the possibility that perhaps they’re correct…perhaps they are such miserable examples of humanity that the prospect of their removal from the gene pool amounts to algicide, rather than homicide, in their own estimation.
    …and if that’s the case, they should not expect that a policeman, fireman or neighbor would put their own life on the line to risk injury or death on their behalf.

    If they’re not willing to fight to stay alive, they shouldn’t make the Varsity team…Darwin awards are still meted out to at least some of the deserving.

    Unfortunately, that normally means they also have effectively determined that their spouse and any innocent children are also unworthy of parental protection from either the insult of violence or the indignity of torture or sexual predation…

    “Papa or Mama won’t allow a gun in the house” doesn’t really help much when you’re an innocent victim of violence…

    Sad, infantile, and ultimately nihilistic…

    Even a neutered animal will attempt fight or flight, and any mother of any species will normally fight to protect or defend their young if they are capable of understanding the threat.

    Neuterization or feminization are not the right terms for such creatures…they lack the fundamental self-awareness to be considered sentient.

  24. It looks like Mr. Hammond is now arguing he would vastly prefer to be stabbed, beaten, strangled, bludgeoned, or burned to death as long as he never gets shot. I feel he would do himself a great service if he focused more on the Snowman as the Thieving Magpie has clearly deprived him of his Moment of Clarity. No standing ovations from this audience, Mr. Conductor.

  25. Looks like we might have to stick Peirs in one of those jets that Barry is sending to Egypt